[rohrpost] two-bitcoin?! Der vollstaendige Text auf Englisch im
Chat-Format
n0name at gmx.de
n0name at gmx.de
Mon Jan 13 15:19:37 CET 2014
two-bitcoin?!
TextJam
as
A tour in the orbit of bitcoins'[s] circulation, revolution and
condition of flowing concerning the measure of value based on
human labour
December 20, 2013
(17:08) 20:00 - open end (in English)
The full text in chat-format
see below
Der vollstaendige Text auf Englisch im Chat-Format
siehe unten
Unicode
(In German, sorry) Das mehr oder weniger Signifikante bei der
Entstehung von Bitcoin war/ist das materielle Zugestaendnis, dass
das Mining (Gewinnung) ueber eine mit Arbeit aufgebaute Maschinerie
des Rechnens per Computer erfolgte und kein rein virtuelles --
semiotisches -- Minting (Muenzen) auf Zeichenbasis darstellt. Dies
ist ausserdem das Zugestaendnis an eine materialistische
Geldwertheorie, die bei der Geldware vom in dieser Ware
vergegenstaendlichten menschlichen Arbeitsprozess, der in der
Automation selbstverstaendlich enthalten ist, ausgeht. In einer
Generation Rechner (Computer) sind Generationen _Arbeit_ -- eine
Theorie des geistigen Szientistischen nennt es reduzierend _Wissen_
oder in Absetzung davon _Hardware_ -- angehaeuft. Jedes Bit "coin"
erhaelt Wert aus dieser Arbeit. Das unterscheidet es vom als rein
"virtuell" konzipierten Geld, aber auch vom fiktiven oder vom
imaginaeren Geld, dessen Gebrauchswert nur Zeichenfunktion ist,
dessen im gegebener (Eigen-)Wert nicht auf die Gewinnung
zurueckgehen kann und dessen 'Gegenwert' blosz vorgestellt ist.
Wobei die Vorstellung sich auf Waren in der Zirkulation bezieht,
die laengst vorhanden sind.
Imaginaeres Geld wuerde also einfach nur die Geldmenge zur
Darstellung dieser Waren in Preisen erhoehen -- was einige Probleme
mit sich bringen kann (Geldabwertung, Beschleunigung des Umschlags,
Stoerung anderer Welt-Waehrungen). Ideelles Geld ist aber nicht
rein imaginaer, es ist -- warenbezogen -- notwendig ideell, als
Wertausdruck.
Bitcoin ist zwar als nichtstaatliche und zonale (Datenverkehr)
Waehrung Spekulationsobjekt, aber nur weil es potentielles
Zahlungsmittel ist, weil es Wert darstellt und anzeigt -- wie
Papiergeld. Jedes Zahlungsmittel ist ideeller Wert. Spekulation auf
Geld muss aber auf einen materiellen Ursprung, das Mining,
referenzieren und im Zweifelsfall seine Funktion Zahlungsmittel
sanktionieren.
Mit Bitcoin lassen sich alle Formen der Geldware, bis zum Regional-
und Lokalgeld, erkennen und werden nicht ueberschritten, es sei
denn in der mit ihm verbundenen Moechtegern-Weltgeld-Fantasie eines
absoluten und auch noch "demokratischen Geldes" fuer alle
Warenbeziehungen.
Faktisch wurde mit BTC das Mining aber sofort zum Minting. Ohne das
erstere waere es reines Muenzen gewesen und wuerde, was zum hohen
Grad auch geschieht, staendig ueber den Geldwarewert anderer
Waehrungen bemessen -- bewertet -- werden.
Heisse Hoffnungen auf ein neues "Universal Money" (auf Deutsch bei
Marx "Weltgeld") per Rechner werden sich entspannen. Virtuelle
Waehrungen werden wirkliche, da sie ueber andere wirkliche Waehrungen
und vor allem die Anbindung an die Warenwerte an Kapitalien und die
Produktion gebunden bleiben, die in Krisenituationen und im
alltaeeglichen Normalfall der Subvention und Handelsschutzmasznahmen
den Kredit des last ressort, geschuetzt von einem oder mehreren
Staaten, noetig haben. Dass Muenzen den Staat und seine Schutzfunktion
fuers Kapital ueberfluessig machte, ist nicht zu erkennen. Im
Gegenteil verschaffen Verfechter des Bitcoin und anderer
informatischer Geldformen einen Cashflow im Devisenbereich, im besten
Fall einen neu-nominierten (Denomination) Kapitalfluss im
Finanzkapitalbereich mit den entsprechenden Extragewinnen und
-verlusten. Fuer Bitcoin u.a. gilt das Versprechen des Gewinns aus
disruptiven <alte verdraengende> Geschaeften im kleinkapitalistischen
Stil. Die eigene Speicherplatte und Rechnerkapazitaet verbindet sich
mit auratischer Verfrorenheit (Coolness). Diese Geschaefte formieren
sich als des-ruptive, nicht-brechende, Kapitalverhaeltnisse
stuetzende und eneuernde.
Die fuer das Bitcoin-Thema geplante TextJam auf dem Server von
Connex I/O musste aufgrund von Speicherproblemen leider verlegt
werden. Die folgenden Textjams werden zunaechst weiterhin auf bloochat
laufen.
Yelena Simc, Matze Schmidt
[05:05 pm] System: Chat room http://bloochat.com/vv2m9 created.
Welcome! To invite people to the chat room, just
give them this address.
[05:05 pm] System: n0name DE (IP 176.199.***.***) enters.
[05:08 pm] n0name: two-bitcoin?! TextJam now here:
http://bloochat.com/vv2m9
[05:08 pm] n0name: bitcoining 20-open?
[05:08 pm] n0name: don't have the time, got to work.
[05:09 pm] n0name: since 17:08
[05:13 pm] n0name: two-bitcoin?!? two-bitcoin?!
[05:13 pm] n0name: but not the money is the richnessnes
[05:13 pm] n0name: bitcoining 20-open? don't have the time, got to
work.
[05:13 pm] n0name: The sudden reversion from a system of credit to a
system of hard cash = monetary system. When does
it happen? When the rich don't have the money the
poor don't have the jobs -- the [unlink] bidder
[unlink] thinks.
[05:17 pm] n0name: Symbolic bits as money are currency of money.
[05:19 pm] n0name: perhaps "Means of Payment"
[05:24 pm] n0name: buy ... pay
[05:25 pm] n0name: Means of payment, means of buying
[05:26 pm] n0name: Marx quotes Luther, who differentiates in money as
means of buying and means of payment -- in:
[05:27 pm] n0name: Karl Marx. Capital Volume One Chapter Three: Money,
Or the Circulation of Commodities SECTION 3 MONEY
B. Means of Payment
[05:27 pm] n0name: http://www.marxists.org/archive/marx/works/1867-c1
/ch03.htm#S3b
[05:29 pm] n0name: So there can be a delay between buying an paying.
This inbetween can cause inbetweeners.
[05:30 pm] n0name: The vendor becomes a creditor, the purchaser
becomes a debtor.
[05:31 pm] n0name: But we are talking (chatting) about G-G', which
means money-more money.
[05:32 pm] n0name: A form of value.
[05:34 pm] n0name: The inbetween (delay) of the act of purchase and
the act of payment causes the credit.
[05:37 pm] n0name: Currency (latin "currens") is the condition of
flowing. The thing that moves constantly, whereas
commodities fall out of the process.
[05:39 pm] n0name: credere = believing, entrust
[05:40 pm] n0name: The creditor is a beliver and belives in the
payback.
[05:41 pm] n0name: The current (or stream) of money came to a halt for
the credit.
[05:43 pm] n0name: This is:
[05:43 pm] n0name: two-bitcoin?! TextJam as A tour in the orbit of
bitcoins' circulation, revolution and condition of
flowing concerning the measure of value based on
human labour December 20, 2013
[05:43 pm] n0name: The current/currency is a sort of orbit, the cours
de la monnaie.
[05:47 pm] n0name: What began as C-C (commodity for commodity, became
the form C-M-C (commodity for money for commodity).
[05:48 pm] n0name: And then M-C-M (money for commodity for money).
[05:49 pm] n0name: "the money. [...] is continually withdrawing
commodities from circulation and stepping into
their places,"
[05:49 pm] n0name: ... as the C always is to be consumed, and the M
stays.
[05:50 pm] n0name: bitcoins can be a money too ;)
[06:03 pm] n0name: ...
[06:04 pm] n0name: as a form of value (according to the 'theory of
value' following Marx)
[06:05 pm] n0name: two-bit is lousy
[06:06 pm] n0name: "bit" is the binary digit, it can have only one of
two values
[06:07 pm] n0name: the value of the bit is not an economical value
[06:08 pm] n0name: They call the bit "the basic unit of information
in computing" -- in fact it is a term for the
oscillating of computations/calculations.
[06:09 pm] n0name: ...
[06:17 pm] System: masgnu DE (IP 176.199.***.***) enters.
[06:18 pm] masgnu: true/false
[06:19 pm] masgnu: some thesis by the critics may be that bit-systems
(computer systems) determine the values of finances
[06:23 pm] n0name: "to send and receive so called 'coins'" does not
necessarily determine values.
[06:24 pm] System: masgnu has left.
[06:24 pm] n0name: Values of finances may be a concept with problems
since it suggests a value 'coming out' of the
money.
[06:26 pm] System: masgnu DE (IP 176.199.***.***) enters.
[06:27 pm] masgnu: but the trade can form the values of the
currencies
[06:29 pm] n0name: Okay, but mining of "bitcoins" is a mining on the
basis of 'regular' money/currencies. Trading of C
(money) as currency not as pay-money may cause
shifts in their prices.
[06:29 pm] masgnu: the libor scandal
[06:30 pm] n0name: Yes, but let's first check out the money and its
functions.
[06:31 pm] n0name: To find out what's going on with bits of coins.
[06:33 pm] n0name: In order to find it out, we can differentiate forms
of money as »buy-money«, »pay-money«, »currency« in
the circulation and money as hoard (treasure).
[06:34 pm] masgnu: money as bits
[06:34 pm] n0name: Money as bits can be regarded as coins -- as signs
for the value of money.
[06:35 pm] masgnu: and coins ca become a treasure
[06:36 pm] n0name: Yes, but only when is gets immovable, when money as
coins becomes money again.
[06:36 pm] masgnu: ?
[06:37 pm] n0name: wait
[06:37 pm] n0name: This is the "two-bitcoin?!" TextJam
[06:37 pm] n0name: Very much becoming a kind of radio show chat.
[06:38 pm] n0name: Its subtitle was:
[06:38 pm] n0name: A tour in the orbit of bitcoins' circulation,
revolution and condition of flowing concerning the
measure of value based on human labour
[06:38 pm] n0name: coins ca become a treasure
[06:38 pm] n0name: money as money -> ?
[06:39 pm] n0name: I'd say: money can be the "medium" for the value
out of work.
[06:39 pm] masgnu: but as a medium that holds the value
[06:40 pm] n0name: Right -- and which does not only signify. It is --
according to Marx "Capital" -- a kind of form of
value.
[06:40 pm] n0name: carrier
[06:41 pm] n0name: We can take into consideration different forms of
this »value-carrier«.
[06:42 pm] System: Nomos DE (IP 176.199.***.***) enters.
[06:42 pm] n0name: Hi, three IPs very close.
[06:43 pm] Nomos: hi
[06:44 pm] System: masgnu has left.
[06:44 pm] Nomos: okay, value as money, as coins, as medium for
buying, as medium for payment, as hoard
[06:45 pm] n0name: Therefore value can be a hoard, a hoard of money as
a hoard of value.
[06:46 pm] n0name: It gets from movable into an immovable 'thing', a
surreal/real thing, a condition.
[06:47 pm] n0name: BTC (bitcoin) can be traded and hoarded, can be
used as medium for buying, as medium for payment.
[06:50 pm] n0name: It is now (since about Dec 18) forbidden to change
BTC into renminbi, the Chinese currency.
[06:50 pm] Nomos: one can still buy thing with it
[06:52 pm] n0name: A few maybe. Important here for me: BTC functions
(still) as medium for buying/paying but trade
ended.
[06:54 pm] n0name: The up and down of BTC as currency in relation to
its function as means for pay was too fast and too
super..
[06:54 pm] Nomos: .
[06:56 pm] n0name: "Unlike traditional currencies such as dollars,
bitcoins are issued and managed without any central
authority whatsoever"
[06:56 pm] n0name: end of end of quotation
[06:57 pm] n0name: be your own bank
[06:57 pm] n0name: there is no government, company, or bank in charge
of Bitcoin
[06:57 pm] n0name: end of end of 2nd quotation
[06:57 pm] n0name: It's all phrase.
[06:58 pm] n0name: The 'virtual' currency (buy, pay, hoard, trade,
credit, etc.) is related to currencies/leading
currencies (government, company, or bank)
[06:59 pm] n0name: ... government, company, or bank 'driven'.
[06:59 pm] n0name: -driven
[06:59 pm] Nomos: exchange first
[07:00 pm] n0name: Who is specialised in online culture and the dark
net?
[07:01 pm] n0name: They say: 21 million Bitcoins are in circulation.
[07:01 pm] n0name: see:
[07:02 pm] n0name: http://blogs.telegraph.co.uk/technology/jamiebartl
ett/100011868/one-day-amazon-will-accept-bitcoins-
thats-when-central-banks-and-governments-get-
nervous/
[07:02 pm] n0name: Coins in circulation are firstly the means of
payment related to the commodities in circulation.
[07:03 pm] n0name: So a first brief statement can be:
[07:04 pm] n0name: A currency without the agencies government,
company, or bank (more specifically government,
bank)
[07:04 pm] n0name: is still related to wares.
[07:04 pm] n0name: Is based on wares = based on value(s).
[07:06 pm] n0name: So the triple of negation "government, company, or
bank" is untrue. Companies, resp. are in.
[07:07 pm] n0name: As well as a) governments and/or b) banks. a) coin
the coins and banks distribute.
[07:08 pm] n0name: The specialised one tells: virtual money "may erode
tax-raising powers" -- and the powers of state?
[07:10 pm] n0name: On the one hand one could state: This is a
neo-liberal project lingo against the state pro
individual companies.
[07:14 pm] n0name: On the other hand it is onyl another M-M' just as
any other currency. it may become (a) universal
money (world money) -- as every nation needs a
reserve of money for its own circulation, it
requires one for external circulation in the
markets of the world (see Marx, "Universal Money").
[07:16 pm] n0name: BTC can become one like EURO, Dollar ... That will
not change the function of the national markets,
even if numbers of minters a peer-to-peer buyers/
sellers production will be located.
[07:16 pm] n0name: Quote:
[07:16 pm] n0name: "Apparently there is already an entire trendy
suburb in Berlin where you can more or less live
on them already."
[07:18 pm] n0name: One M for another M (M = money). Another local
currency, direct money, cheaper credit but credit.
[07:23 pm] Nomos: credit can be made here without value coming of
labor
[07:25 pm] n0name: A value that assesses 'itself' via the value of
other values, here money -- via prices for money.
A typical moment of crisis.
[07:29 pm] n0name: First theory of signs, then an economical M-M
circle. When BTC is for the conduits (canals) for
money needed, it will loose its value.
[07:29 pm] n0name: maybe
[07:31 pm] n0name: We call "inflation" a reflection of a reduction in
the purchasing power per unit of money [means of
buying], the loss of real value in the medium of
exchange [means of paying]."
[07:32 pm] n0name: The measure for this is the general price index for
wares ... money:wares.
[07:34 pm] n0name: bitcoin is overvalued, overprized. That's why China
stopped it. The chatter of the rebellion of
DIY-minters ...
[07:36 pm] n0name: ... wants to get rid of the last ressort (state
banks) in case of a downmove of the value of the
currency and needs it at the same time as the maker
of the currencies that gives BTC the value..
[07:36 pm] Nomos: full stop
[07:38 pm] n0name: Sick of the physical, BTCers want to have the
material thing and must constantly state: the
modus M-C (money for commodity) is possible.
[07:45 pm] n0name: Currency market, exchange market, exchange rate,
trading rate --
[07:46 pm] n0name: Buying the coin is one thing, the chain is:
[07:47 pm] n0name: _one_ chain is:
[07:48 pm] n0name: BTC -- Commodity -- producer/seller -- other
currency (for buying labour, machines, materials)
[07:48 pm] n0name: Another chain is:
[07:48 pm] n0name: BTC -- other currency, one buys bitcoin for
Dollars, for instance.
[07:51 pm] n0name: Oh, democracy of the monetary system.
[07:54 pm] n0name: #One bought 10,000 bitcoins for $50
[07:55 pm] Nomos: seems the first step was a minting of a sign, the
second a buy for value
[08:01 pm] n0name: ...
[08:02 pm] n0name: two-bitcoin
[08:04 pm] n0name: value-bitcoin
[08:04 pm] n0name: The arguments: BTC is no commodity based currency;
without funds; trust only; gold would have no funds
[08:04 pm] n0name: .
[08:04 pm] n0name: proves itself valuable
[08:08 pm] n0name: no commodity based currency: all currency is based
on value, value can only arise from work, crises
show this clearly when values fall with the
breakdown of value-production
[08:11 pm] System: bd GB (IP 92.40.***.***) enters.
[08:12 pm] n0name: without funds (nothing would cover it): if no one
would accept the form BTC for Commodity, there
would be nothing as symbols, a currency must have a
fund/cover in values, here: wares
[08:12 pm] Nomos: only fund is trust
[08:13 pm] n0name: trust only (as the fund/cover): trust of or in
what? a trust in a difference
[08:14 pm] n0name: the difference of a set value can only be an other
value
[08:15 pm] System: bd has left.
[08:17 pm] n0name: gold would have no funds either: is fairly untrue
as gold is based on its own value (metal as product
of labour) and in relation to its difference, the
value of other wares
[08:21 pm] System: horrorface DE (IP 95.91.***.***) enters.
[08:21 pm] horrorface: hi
[08:25 pm] horrorface: only 3 people?
[08:25 pm] n0name: interesting: BTC obviously needs a mining compared
to gold which is based on its own value out of
mining
[08:26 pm] Nomos: a mining with computer-power
[08:26 pm] n0name: ... which holds labour power
[08:26 pm] System: Nomos leaves.
[08:27 pm] horrorface: ok bye
[08:28 pm] System: horrorface leaves.
[08:28 pm] n0name: So "no funds" is no true, the media- and sign-only
theory is (bye) ...
[08:28 pm] n0name: not true
[08:29 pm] n0name: ... is masking the real basis
[08:33 pm] n0name: as measure of value bitcoins is based on human
labour, dead human labour realised in a machinery
(a computer calculation is mining items of value)
and therefore (abridged) no two-bitcoin
[08:33 pm] n0name: and the conditions of flowing here are the common
ones
[08:34 pm] n0name: paused
[08:35 pm] System: Sa US (IP 98.154.***.***) enters.
[08:35 pm] System: Nomos DE (IP 176.199.***.***) enters.
[08:36 pm] Nomos: so btc's theory and practise are disintegrated
[08:38 pm] n0name: Yes, but BTC has only value as coins/currency, It
can not represent labour (labour-time) directly.
[08:39 pm] System: Sa has left.
[08:40 pm] n0name: Money needs its own form of commodity, and only as
commodity face to face with other commodities it
can represent value.
[08:41 pm] n0name: The value can not be based on a self-difference,
that is impossible.
[08:41 pm] n0name: b(u)ye
[08:42 pm] n0name: [this chat still online untill 22:00 German Time]
[08:56 pm] System: Nomos leaves.
[09:08 pm] System: bluecoffeedark GB (IP 82.2.***.***) enters.
[09:08 pm] bluecoffeedark: hi. is this txtjm?
[09:09 pm] bluecoffeedark: textjam any1?
[09:10 pm] bluecoffeedark: :(
[09:12 pm] bluecoffeedark: ok.. i'll copy to a d1ff room
[09:17 pm] bluecoffeedark: you are well welcome to jam in http://
bloochat.com/d1ffroom ;) xx
[09:28 pm] System: woffle DE (IP 79.214.***.***) enters.
[09:37 pm] bluecoffeedark: hi woffle
[09:38 pm] bluecoffeedark: check http://rwm.macba.cat/en/curatorial/
genis_segarra_inhuman_voice/capsula
[10:17 pm] System: woffle has left.
[10:23 pm] System: bogey HU (IP 78.92.***.***) enters.
[10:29 pm] System: sdc NO (IP 80.202.***.***) enters.
[10:32 pm] System: sdc has left.
[10:36 pm] System: n0name has left.
[10:40 pm] System: bogey leaves.
[10:41 pm] System: none IT (IP 87.18.***.***) enters.
[10:42 pm] none: what is this for?
http://n0name.de/txtjam/two-bitcoin.txt
n0name 2014