[spectre] TRACING UNDERCURRENTS: Sonic Routes Between
news at brsma.in-berlin.de
Thu Oct 13 22:10:23 CEST 2005
high noon, again, for twisted minds and according world perceptions, it
seems. and high time to get the balance right, at least as far as it is
possible under these circumstances.
On Tue, Oct 11, 2005 at 06:14:34PM +0100, Simon Biggs wrote:
> There is a major difference between the USA and Israel. The USA does
> not constitutionally disallow its citizens from full social inclusion
> on the grounds of ethnicity or religion. Nor does the UK or the other
> countries mentioned.
nor does israel. constitutionally, that is (well, no constition but a
basic law, see e.g. http://faculty.cua.edu/fischer/ComparativeLaw2002/
shoell/ISRAEL.htm) but we're not talking about the vastly distorted
views of religious fundamentalists, are we?
> Whilst these countries are often deeply problematic they are not
> premised on the notion of a certain "people" having a divine right
> over others to inhabit and own the land and all its resources.
first, it is not premises that matter but actual behaviour. and this is
also where the state of israel *can* be critisised and has to be
critisised for good reason. at least as long as one is able to adhere to
an equal scale for all (which you apparently don't, though you try to
deny it) and not totally forget about some historical contexts.
second, it has been the 'indigenous' population (which came to be there
by a lesser part by arab conquest of the whole region during the 7th,
and in most parts rather late during the 19th century) which
historically started denying people there their very right to plain
existence. that said it might be interesting for you to follow the
population and economic history in the concerning mid-eastern areas
during the 19th century. you will find a lot of then worthless and
extreme sparely settled land which has either actually not been in use
at all - not even nomadic - or happily been sold by the owners. you will
find extremely hard working people turning those devastated, barren
places into something which is in the end starting to get worth living
on and for. you will then find 'indigenous' population (who to the
largest part never lived there actually) being magically drawn to some
of those now slightly prospering places. and just a little bit later you
will find the first notable acts of violence. little innocent pogroms,
that is, not worth talking about, aren't they. guess by whom against
whom. motive? you might call it envy. but envy alone won't get you the
bunch of motivated thugs to mug up your more succesful neighbours, so
you have to invent something. and there it is: a people where there
wasn't one before. simple, effective, proven by history to work
reliably. then, later on you will also find great heroes of palestinian
resistance like e.g. the wonderful grand mufti of jerusalem al-husseini,
beloved friend of nazi germany for apparent reasons. not that he had to
be persuaded, mind you, they just found each other.
> Iran defines itself in terms or religion alone and then continues to
> tolerate other belief systems within that.
?!?!? as long as they are not practiced maybe. speaking of iran's
extraordinary tolerance you might want to discuss this issue e.g. with a
certain mr. rushdie who might happen to live/hide just somewhere around
your corner or any other refugee for similar reasons who had not the
luck of becoming a person of public interest but, contrary to quite a
lot of others, at least had the luck of getting out alive.
> Ethnicity is not an issue there.
judaism is normally inherited through ones mother, as you should know,
which *does* have same consequences in terms of ethnicity. not that they
were different to the consequences in several european countries when
you don't belong to the ruling ethnic group.
the ethnic part actually has some rather positive side effects, e.g.
that even religious fundamentalists don't come running around and try to
convert others to their belief, like it or not. as in the other two
great monotheistic mind diseases that is. the consequences of which are
how about the fact that the quran actually draws a very delicate and
very strict border between believers and non-believers in terms of
rights, citizenship, etc. and not a very friendly one, that is.
how about e.g. saudia arabia, btw -- you *do* know some of the laws
(and the juridicial practice) there, don't you?
how about jordan where the vast majority of the population is palestine,
but the ruling class mostly hashemite? guess why they rather violently
drove the palestian refugees out of the refugee camps in the border
region and denied them shelter. not quite the brotherly behaviour, don't
you think so?
> have felt uncomfortable everywhere in the States. However it is a
> pluralist society where, as yet, few people are denied their freedom,
> even their identity, due to their religious or ethnic character
ask some mexicans or other hispanics in the southern border regions
about this next time. and yes, nonetheless it is still a pluralist
society, bush and his junta or not. much more than practically every
country in the middle east, at least. not that there wasn't quite some
room for improvement...
> I think there is an argument that can be made that many
> post-imperialist societies are grounded on false premises
oh, you would like to imply then that the pre-imperialist societies were
grounded on right premises - like e.g. blood and soil?
> I would argue though that Israel, due to its policies, its actions and
> its very constitution, is a special case and needs to be dealt with as
oh, i understand, a *special case*. so you are suggesting an according
'sonderbehandlung' (special treatment), maybe in the meaning of the
wannsee conference on the 'final solution of the jewish question' in
1942. oops, no?
i rather would argue that a long and still very vivid history of
european (and arab) antisemitism(*) and the accompanying violence is
blurring the public view on this affair far too much, as is pretty
apparent in your case.
(*) yes, antijudaism would be a more logical choice of word
> this debate is not noise...it is signal and addressing some of the
> core themes of this list.
like left-wing antisemitism?
> However, whilst this is a terrible crime it is not quite the same as
> the situation in Israel. Any attempt to suggest so appears to
> represent an apologia for Israeli policy.
and jews are never to be forgiven, because they are, er..., *special*,
> In Israel, however, we are seeing in our own lifetimes an entire
> people (more than one people, actually) robbed of their land
how came the land to be 'theirs'? -- uh, erm... next question, please.
also, a few regions in central africa could come to mind concerning
peoples being robbed of their land in our very own lifetime. not
speaking of the bloody mass slaughter of whole ethnic groups. a little
bit earlier we could have spoken e.g. of the khmer rouge - afaik pol pot
still holds the historical record for dead people per time unit. but
then, there aren't any jews involved there, so it might have escaped
people with a certain mindset, as it is not equally suitable for a whole
lot of mental projections.
> and identity
you shurely will care to show us a glimpse of palestinian identity
*before* there were jewish settlers in the former british mandate of
palestine, won't you?
> on the grounds of a demented religious belief and active support
> (especially by the USA) of what is effectively a Western colonisation
> of the middle-east.
especially after the british left this mess, largely caused by them, on
their own after WW2. a mess they took over from the ottoman empire which
in turn again took over from others and others which took over from the
arab conquestors which took over from the romans which took over from...
you might also like to remember that the UN solution of 1948, as flawed
as it might have been, granted the arab population for the first time in
history a souvereign state of their own. and it was not the jewish
israelis-to-become who turned that plan down. not even speaking of the
dear neighbours who one time after the other had nothing better to do
than try to wipe the newfounded state from earth's surface. but not out
of compassion for the poor palestinian 'brothers'. who are still dumb
enough to let themselves be held hostage by a bunch of inane leaders
that have denied any chance for 'their' people to live in peace one time
after the other. a scheme which might slightly remind you of the
surrounding countries, or former yugoslavia, or central africa, or...
and so forth, etc. pp. <sigh>
> I would suggest, again, that this is qualitively different to what is
> going on elsewhere.
yes. especially for antisemites.
and forgive me that i have not equally pointed out the atrocities of
occupation, the crying unfairness in public affairs etc. those are *not*
tolerable. but they are by far not the only aspects of this hullaballoo
and have been pointed out by others. the problems there will not be
solved by scape-goating israel or scape-goating the palestinians (who
nonetheless are at least equally well to be blamed for the state of
affairs) or any other of the involved parties. which actually are far
more than two and most of them are arab 'brother' countries which is
most often forgotten about.
and they will even less be solved with dangerously simplistic and
ideologically distorted rants like the ones you have been occupying
bandwidth and unfortunately also my attention with.
:: 01 at brsma.de ::. :: .. :... . .... . . . . . .
:: www.brsma.de :: ..: .:. . :.. ..: . . . . . .
:: icq #121790750 ::.: .:. :. ::. .. . .. . . . .
:: public key id 0x2EA549A0 ::.. :: . . . . .. . . .
More information about the SPECTRE