[rohrpost] two-bitcoin?! Der vollstaendige Text auf Englisch im Chat-Format

n0name at gmx.de n0name at gmx.de
Mon Jan 13 15:19:37 CET 2014


two-bitcoin?!
TextJam
as
A tour in the orbit of bitcoins'[s] circulation, revolution and
condition of flowing concerning the measure of value based on
human labour
December 20, 2013
(17:08) 20:00 - open end (in English)
The full text in chat-format
see below
Der vollstaendige Text auf Englisch im Chat-Format
siehe unten

Unicode

(In German, sorry) Das mehr oder weniger Signifikante bei der 
Entstehung von Bitcoin war/ist das materielle Zugestaendnis, dass 
das Mining (Gewinnung) ueber eine mit Arbeit aufgebaute Maschinerie 
des Rechnens per Computer erfolgte und kein rein virtuelles -- 
semiotisches -- Minting (Muenzen) auf Zeichenbasis darstellt. Dies 
ist ausserdem das Zugestaendnis an eine materialistische 
Geldwertheorie, die bei der Geldware vom in dieser Ware 
vergegenstaendlichten menschlichen Arbeitsprozess, der in der 
Automation selbstverstaendlich enthalten ist, ausgeht. In einer 
Generation Rechner (Computer) sind Generationen _Arbeit_ -- eine 
Theorie des geistigen Szientistischen nennt es reduzierend _Wissen_ 
oder in Absetzung davon _Hardware_ -- angehaeuft. Jedes Bit "coin" 
erhaelt Wert aus dieser Arbeit. Das unterscheidet es vom als rein 
"virtuell" konzipierten Geld, aber auch vom fiktiven oder vom 
imaginaeren Geld, dessen Gebrauchswert nur Zeichenfunktion ist, 
dessen im gegebener (Eigen-)Wert nicht auf die Gewinnung 
zurueckgehen kann und dessen 'Gegenwert' blosz vorgestellt ist. 
Wobei die Vorstellung sich auf Waren in der Zirkulation bezieht, 
die laengst vorhanden sind.
Imaginaeres Geld wuerde also einfach nur die Geldmenge zur 
Darstellung dieser Waren in Preisen erhoehen -- was einige Probleme 
mit sich bringen kann (Geldabwertung, Beschleunigung des Umschlags, 
Stoerung anderer Welt-Waehrungen). Ideelles Geld ist aber nicht 
rein imaginaer, es ist -- warenbezogen -- notwendig ideell, als 
Wertausdruck.
Bitcoin ist zwar als nichtstaatliche und zonale (Datenverkehr) 
Waehrung Spekulationsobjekt, aber nur weil es potentielles 
Zahlungsmittel ist, weil es Wert darstellt und anzeigt -- wie 
Papiergeld. Jedes Zahlungsmittel ist ideeller Wert. Spekulation auf 
Geld muss aber auf einen materiellen Ursprung, das Mining, 
referenzieren und im Zweifelsfall seine Funktion Zahlungsmittel 
sanktionieren.
Mit Bitcoin lassen sich alle Formen der Geldware, bis zum Regional- 
und Lokalgeld, erkennen und werden nicht ueberschritten, es sei 
denn in der mit ihm verbundenen Moechtegern-Weltgeld-Fantasie eines 
absoluten und auch noch "demokratischen Geldes" fuer alle 
Warenbeziehungen.
Faktisch wurde mit BTC das Mining aber sofort zum Minting. Ohne das 
erstere waere es reines Muenzen gewesen und wuerde, was zum hohen 
Grad auch geschieht, staendig ueber den Geldwarewert anderer 
Waehrungen bemessen -- bewertet -- werden.
Heisse Hoffnungen auf ein neues "Universal Money" (auf Deutsch bei 
Marx "Weltgeld") per Rechner werden sich entspannen. Virtuelle 
Waehrungen werden wirkliche, da sie ueber andere wirkliche Waehrungen 
und vor allem die Anbindung an die Warenwerte an Kapitalien und die 
Produktion gebunden bleiben, die in Krisenituationen und im 
alltaeeglichen Normalfall der Subvention und Handelsschutzmasznahmen 
den Kredit des last ressort, geschuetzt von einem oder mehreren 
Staaten, noetig haben. Dass Muenzen den Staat und seine Schutzfunktion 
fuers Kapital ueberfluessig machte, ist nicht zu erkennen. Im 
Gegenteil verschaffen Verfechter des Bitcoin und anderer 
informatischer Geldformen einen Cashflow im Devisenbereich, im besten 
Fall einen neu-nominierten (Denomination) Kapitalfluss im 
Finanzkapitalbereich mit den entsprechenden Extragewinnen und 
-verlusten. Fuer Bitcoin u.a. gilt das Versprechen des Gewinns aus 
disruptiven <alte verdraengende> Geschaeften im kleinkapitalistischen 
Stil. Die eigene Speicherplatte und Rechnerkapazitaet verbindet sich 
mit auratischer Verfrorenheit (Coolness). Diese Geschaefte formieren 
sich als des-ruptive, nicht-brechende, Kapitalverhaeltnisse 
stuetzende und eneuernde.

Die fuer das Bitcoin-Thema geplante TextJam auf dem Server von 
Connex I/O musste aufgrund von Speicherproblemen leider verlegt 
werden. Die folgenden Textjams werden zunaechst weiterhin auf bloochat 
laufen.

Yelena Simc, Matze Schmidt

[05:05 pm] System: Chat room http://bloochat.com/vv2m9 created. 
                   Welcome! To invite people to the chat room, just 
                   give them this address.
[05:05 pm] System: n0name DE (IP 176.199.***.***) enters.
[05:08 pm] n0name: two-bitcoin?! TextJam now here: 
                   http://bloochat.com/vv2m9
[05:08 pm] n0name: bitcoining 20-open?
[05:08 pm] n0name: don't have the time, got to work.
[05:09 pm] n0name: since 17:08
[05:13 pm] n0name: two-bitcoin?!? two-bitcoin?!
[05:13 pm] n0name: but not the money is the richnessnes
[05:13 pm] n0name: bitcoining 20-open? don't have the time, got to 
                   work.
[05:13 pm] n0name: The sudden reversion from a system of credit to a 
                   system of hard cash = monetary system. When does 
                   it happen? When the rich don't have the money the 
                   poor don't have the jobs -- the [unlink] bidder 
                   [unlink] thinks.
[05:17 pm] n0name: Symbolic bits as money are currency of money.
[05:19 pm] n0name: perhaps "Means of Payment"
[05:24 pm] n0name: buy ... pay
[05:25 pm] n0name: Means of payment, means of buying
[05:26 pm] n0name: Marx quotes Luther, who differentiates in money as 
                   means of buying and means of payment -- in:
[05:27 pm] n0name: Karl Marx. Capital Volume One Chapter Three: Money, 
                   Or the Circulation of Commodities SECTION 3 MONEY 
                   B. Means of Payment
[05:27 pm] n0name: http://www.marxists.org/archive/marx/works/1867-c1
                   /ch03.htm#S3b
[05:29 pm] n0name: So there can be a delay between buying an paying. 
                   This inbetween can cause inbetweeners.
[05:30 pm] n0name: The vendor becomes a creditor, the purchaser 
                   becomes a debtor.
[05:31 pm] n0name: But we are talking (chatting) about G-G', which 
                   means money-more money.
[05:32 pm] n0name: A form of value.
[05:34 pm] n0name: The inbetween (delay) of the act of purchase and 
                   the act of payment causes the credit.
[05:37 pm] n0name: Currency (latin "currens") is the condition of 
                   flowing. The thing that moves constantly, whereas 
                   commodities fall out of the process.
[05:39 pm] n0name: credere = believing, entrust
[05:40 pm] n0name: The creditor is a beliver and belives in the 
                   payback.
[05:41 pm] n0name: The current (or stream) of money came to a halt for 
                   the credit.
[05:43 pm] n0name: This is:
[05:43 pm] n0name: two-bitcoin?! TextJam as A tour in the orbit of 
                   bitcoins' circulation, revolution and condition of 
                   flowing concerning the measure of value based on 
                   human labour December 20, 2013
[05:43 pm] n0name: The current/currency is a sort of orbit, the cours 
                   de la monnaie.
[05:47 pm] n0name: What began as C-C (commodity for commodity, became 
                   the form C-M-C (commodity for money for commodity).
[05:48 pm] n0name: And then M-C-M (money for commodity for money).
[05:49 pm] n0name: "the money. [...] is continually withdrawing 
                   commodities from circulation and stepping into 
                   their places,"
[05:49 pm] n0name: ... as the C always is to be consumed, and the M 
                   stays.
[05:50 pm] n0name: bitcoins can be a money too ;)
[06:03 pm] n0name: ...
[06:04 pm] n0name: as a form of value (according to the 'theory of 
                   value' following Marx)
[06:05 pm] n0name: two-bit is lousy
[06:06 pm] n0name: "bit" is the binary digit, it can have only one of 
                   two values
[06:07 pm] n0name: the value of the bit is not an economical value
[06:08 pm] n0name: They call the bit "the basic unit of information 
                   in computing" -- in fact it is a term for the 
                   oscillating of computations/calculations.
[06:09 pm] n0name: ...
[06:17 pm] System: masgnu DE (IP 176.199.***.***) enters.
[06:18 pm] masgnu: true/false
[06:19 pm] masgnu: some thesis by the critics may be that bit-systems 
                   (computer systems) determine the values of finances
[06:23 pm] n0name: "to send and receive so called 'coins'" does not 
                   necessarily determine values.
[06:24 pm] System: masgnu has left.
[06:24 pm] n0name: Values of finances may be a concept with problems 
                   since it suggests a value 'coming out' of the 
                   money.
[06:26 pm] System: masgnu DE (IP 176.199.***.***) enters.
[06:27 pm] masgnu: but the trade can form the values of the 
                   currencies
[06:29 pm] n0name: Okay, but mining of "bitcoins" is a mining on the 
                   basis of 'regular' money/currencies. Trading of C 
                   (money) as currency not as pay-money may cause 
                   shifts in their prices.
[06:29 pm] masgnu: the libor scandal
[06:30 pm] n0name: Yes, but let's first check out the money and its 
                   functions.
[06:31 pm] n0name: To find out what's going on with bits of coins.
[06:33 pm] n0name: In order to find it out, we can differentiate forms 
                   of money as »buy-money«, »pay-money«, »currency« in 
                   the circulation and money as hoard (treasure).
[06:34 pm] masgnu: money as bits
[06:34 pm] n0name: Money as bits can be regarded as coins -- as signs 
                   for the value of money.
[06:35 pm] masgnu: and coins ca become a treasure
[06:36 pm] n0name: Yes, but only when is gets immovable, when money as 
                   coins becomes money again.
[06:36 pm] masgnu: ?
[06:37 pm] n0name: wait
[06:37 pm] n0name: This is the "two-bitcoin?!" TextJam
[06:37 pm] n0name: Very much becoming a kind of radio show chat.
[06:38 pm] n0name: Its subtitle was:
[06:38 pm] n0name: A tour in the orbit of bitcoins' circulation, 
                   revolution and condition of flowing concerning the 
                   measure of value based on human labour
[06:38 pm] n0name: coins ca become a treasure
[06:38 pm] n0name: money as money -> ?
[06:39 pm] n0name: I'd say: money can be the "medium" for the value 
                   out of work.
[06:39 pm] masgnu: but as a medium that holds the value
[06:40 pm] n0name: Right -- and which does not only signify. It is -- 
                   according to Marx "Capital" -- a kind of form of 
                   value.
[06:40 pm] n0name: carrier
[06:41 pm] n0name: We can take into consideration different forms of 
                   this »value-carrier«.
[06:42 pm] System: Nomos DE (IP 176.199.***.***) enters.
[06:42 pm] n0name: Hi, three IPs very close.
[06:43 pm] Nomos: hi
[06:44 pm] System: masgnu has left.
[06:44 pm] Nomos: okay, value as money, as coins, as medium for 
                  buying, as medium for payment, as hoard
[06:45 pm] n0name: Therefore value can be a hoard, a hoard of money as 
                   a hoard of value.
[06:46 pm] n0name: It gets from movable into an immovable 'thing', a 
                   surreal/real thing, a condition.
[06:47 pm] n0name: BTC (bitcoin) can be traded and hoarded, can be 
                   used as medium for buying, as medium for payment.
[06:50 pm] n0name: It is now (since about Dec 18) forbidden to change 
                   BTC into renminbi, the Chinese currency.
[06:50 pm] Nomos: one can still buy thing with it
[06:52 pm] n0name: A few maybe. Important here for me: BTC functions 
                   (still) as medium for buying/paying but trade 
                   ended.
[06:54 pm] n0name: The up and down of BTC as currency in relation to 
                   its function as means for pay was too fast and too 
                   super..
[06:54 pm] Nomos: .
[06:56 pm] n0name: "Unlike traditional currencies such as dollars, 
                   bitcoins are issued and managed without any central 
                   authority whatsoever"
[06:56 pm] n0name: end of end of quotation
[06:57 pm] n0name: be your own bank
[06:57 pm] n0name: there is no government, company, or bank in charge 
                   of Bitcoin
[06:57 pm] n0name: end of end of 2nd quotation
[06:57 pm] n0name: It's all phrase.
[06:58 pm] n0name: The 'virtual' currency (buy, pay, hoard, trade, 
                   credit, etc.) is related to currencies/leading 
                   currencies (government, company, or bank)
[06:59 pm] n0name: ... government, company, or bank 'driven'.
[06:59 pm] n0name: -driven
[06:59 pm] Nomos: exchange first
[07:00 pm] n0name: Who is specialised in online culture and the dark 
                   net?
[07:01 pm] n0name: They say: 21 million Bitcoins are in circulation.
[07:01 pm] n0name: see:
[07:02 pm] n0name: http://blogs.telegraph.co.uk/technology/jamiebartl
                   ett/100011868/one-day-amazon-will-accept-bitcoins-
                   thats-when-central-banks-and-governments-get-
                   nervous/
[07:02 pm] n0name: Coins in circulation are firstly the means of 
                   payment related to the commodities in circulation.
[07:03 pm] n0name: So a first brief statement can be:
[07:04 pm] n0name: A currency without the agencies government, 
                   company, or bank (more specifically government, 
                   bank)
[07:04 pm] n0name: is still related to wares.
[07:04 pm] n0name: Is based on wares = based on value(s).
[07:06 pm] n0name: So the triple of negation "government, company, or 
                   bank" is untrue. Companies, resp. are in.
[07:07 pm] n0name: As well as a) governments and/or b) banks. a) coin 
                   the coins and banks distribute.
[07:08 pm] n0name: The specialised one tells: virtual money "may erode 
                   tax-raising powers" -- and the powers of state?
[07:10 pm] n0name: On the one hand one could state: This is a 
                   neo-liberal project lingo against the state pro 
                   individual companies.
[07:14 pm] n0name: On the other hand it is onyl another M-M' just as 
                   any other currency. it may become (a) universal 
                   money (world money) -- as every nation needs a 
                   reserve of money for its own circulation, it 
                   requires one for external circulation in the 
                   markets of the world (see Marx, "Universal Money").
[07:16 pm] n0name: BTC can become one like EURO, Dollar ... That will 
                   not change the function of the national markets, 
                   even if numbers of minters a peer-to-peer buyers/
                   sellers production will be located.
[07:16 pm] n0name: Quote:
[07:16 pm] n0name: "Apparently there is already an entire trendy 
                   suburb in Berlin where you can more or less live 
                   on them already."
[07:18 pm] n0name: One M for another M (M = money). Another local 
                   currency, direct money, cheaper credit but credit.
[07:23 pm] Nomos: credit can be made here without value coming of 
                  labor
[07:25 pm] n0name: A value that assesses 'itself' via the value of 
                   other values, here money -- via prices for money. 
                   A typical moment of crisis.
[07:29 pm] n0name: First theory of signs, then an economical M-M 
                   circle. When BTC is for the conduits (canals) for 
                   money needed, it will loose its value.
[07:29 pm] n0name: maybe
[07:31 pm] n0name: We call "inflation" a reflection of a reduction in 
                   the purchasing power per unit of money [means of 
                   buying], the loss of real value in the medium of 
                   exchange [means of paying]."
[07:32 pm] n0name: The measure for this is the general price index for 
                   wares ... money:wares.
[07:34 pm] n0name: bitcoin is overvalued, overprized. That's why China 
                   stopped it. The chatter of the rebellion of 
                   DIY-minters ...
[07:36 pm] n0name: ... wants to get rid of the last ressort (state 
                   banks) in case of a downmove of the value of the 
                   currency and needs it at the same time as the maker 
                   of the currencies that gives BTC the value..
[07:36 pm] Nomos: full stop
[07:38 pm] n0name: Sick of the physical, BTCers want to have the 
                   material thing and must constantly state: the 
                   modus M-C (money for commodity) is possible.
[07:45 pm] n0name: Currency market, exchange market, exchange rate, 
                   trading rate --
[07:46 pm] n0name: Buying the coin is one thing, the chain is:
[07:47 pm] n0name: _one_ chain is:
[07:48 pm] n0name: BTC -- Commodity -- producer/seller -- other 
                   currency (for buying labour, machines, materials)
[07:48 pm] n0name: Another chain is:
[07:48 pm] n0name: BTC -- other currency, one buys bitcoin for 
                   Dollars, for instance.
[07:51 pm] n0name: Oh, democracy of the monetary system.
[07:54 pm] n0name: #One bought 10,000 bitcoins for $50
[07:55 pm] Nomos: seems the first step was a minting of a sign, the 
                  second a buy for value
[08:01 pm] n0name: ...
[08:02 pm] n0name: two-bitcoin
[08:04 pm] n0name: value-bitcoin
[08:04 pm] n0name: The arguments: BTC is no commodity based currency; 
                   without funds; trust only; gold would have no funds
[08:04 pm] n0name: .
[08:04 pm] n0name: proves itself valuable
[08:08 pm] n0name: no commodity based currency: all currency is based 
                   on value, value can only arise from work, crises 
                   show this clearly when values fall with the 
                   breakdown of value-production
[08:11 pm] System: bd GB (IP 92.40.***.***) enters.
[08:12 pm] n0name: without funds (nothing would cover it): if no one 
                   would accept the form BTC for Commodity, there 
                   would be nothing as symbols, a currency must have a 
                   fund/cover in values, here: wares
[08:12 pm] Nomos: only fund is trust
[08:13 pm] n0name: trust only (as the fund/cover): trust of or in 
                   what? a trust in a difference
[08:14 pm] n0name: the difference of a set value can only be an other 
                   value
[08:15 pm] System: bd has left.
[08:17 pm] n0name: gold would have no funds either: is fairly untrue 
                   as gold is based on its own value (metal as product 
                   of labour) and in relation to its difference, the 
                   value of other wares
[08:21 pm] System: horrorface DE (IP 95.91.***.***) enters.
[08:21 pm] horrorface: hi
[08:25 pm] horrorface: only 3 people?
[08:25 pm] n0name: interesting: BTC obviously needs a mining compared 
                   to gold which is based on its own value out of 
                   mining
[08:26 pm] Nomos: a mining with computer-power
[08:26 pm] n0name: ... which holds labour power
[08:26 pm] System: Nomos leaves.
[08:27 pm] horrorface: ok bye
[08:28 pm] System: horrorface leaves.
[08:28 pm] n0name: So "no funds" is no true, the media- and sign-only 
                   theory is (bye) ...
[08:28 pm] n0name: not true
[08:29 pm] n0name: ... is masking the real basis
[08:33 pm] n0name: as measure of value bitcoins is based on human 
                   labour, dead human labour realised in a machinery 
                   (a computer calculation is mining items of value) 
                   and therefore (abridged) no two-bitcoin
[08:33 pm] n0name: and the conditions of flowing here are the common 
                   ones
[08:34 pm] n0name: paused
[08:35 pm] System: Sa US (IP 98.154.***.***) enters.
[08:35 pm] System: Nomos DE (IP 176.199.***.***) enters.
[08:36 pm] Nomos: so btc's theory and practise are disintegrated
[08:38 pm] n0name: Yes, but BTC has only value as coins/currency, It 
                   can not represent labour (labour-time) directly.
[08:39 pm] System: Sa has left.
[08:40 pm] n0name: Money needs its own form of commodity, and only as 
                   commodity face to face with other commodities it 
                   can represent value.
[08:41 pm] n0name: The value can not be based on a self-difference, 
                   that is impossible.
[08:41 pm] n0name: b(u)ye
[08:42 pm] n0name: [this chat still online untill 22:00 German Time]
[08:56 pm] System: Nomos leaves.
[09:08 pm] System: bluecoffeedark GB (IP 82.2.***.***) enters.
[09:08 pm] bluecoffeedark: hi. is this txtjm?
[09:09 pm] bluecoffeedark: textjam any1?
[09:10 pm] bluecoffeedark: :(
[09:12 pm] bluecoffeedark: ok.. i'll copy to a d1ff room
[09:17 pm] bluecoffeedark: you are well welcome to jam in http://
                           bloochat.com/d1ffroom ;) xx
[09:28 pm] System: woffle DE (IP 79.214.***.***) enters.
[09:37 pm] bluecoffeedark: hi woffle
[09:38 pm] bluecoffeedark: check http://rwm.macba.cat/en/curatorial/
                           genis_segarra_inhuman_voice/capsula
[10:17 pm] System: woffle has left.
[10:23 pm] System: bogey HU (IP 78.92.***.***) enters.
[10:29 pm] System: sdc NO (IP 80.202.***.***) enters.
[10:32 pm] System: sdc has left.
[10:36 pm] System: n0name has left.
[10:40 pm] System: bogey leaves.
[10:41 pm] System: none IT (IP 87.18.***.***) enters.
[10:42 pm] none: what is this for?

http://n0name.de/txtjam/two-bitcoin.txt

n0name 2014