[spectre] bonsoir

Bernardo Ortiz bortizc@telesat.com.co
Thu, 15 Nov 2001 06:46:42 -0500

As someone living in former european colony, I would like to understand
better your concept of Deep Europe.
I find some very interesting hints (that, by the way, made me subscribe t=
this list) but it isn't clear enough.

I hope you don't find my request to tiresome


bernardo ortiz

-----Mensaje original-----
De: spectre-admin@mikrolisten.de [mailto:spectre-admin@mikrolisten.de]En
nombre de Andreas Broeckmann
Enviado el: Jueves, 15 de Noviembre de 2001 04:13 a.m.
Para: spectre@mikrolisten.de; Sally Jane NORMAN
Asunto: Re: [spectre] bonsoir

dear sally,

the whole issue is very muddled and i wish we had an opportunity to discu=
the many different questions f2f; this mail communication with
cross-posting and very diverse approaches is not easy to get through.

for those of you who are interested, there is some discussion going on on
Syndicate (www.anart.no/~syndicate) about the text inke and i wrote (nn: =
wish you fail. for i have succeeded. so did the communists.), and
rhizome_raw (www.rhizome.org).

sure, the text is an attempt at closing the subject, and yet it opens the
can of worms once again. what we tried to do was spell out how we see
understand the events of the past months. i can imagine a fruitful
discussion in which we try to dig around and take up some of the issues,
like sally does. i am not sure we got it right. but i also try not to get
completely locked up in a story that is passed.

sally writes:
>Under all these doubts a persistent, gnawing irritation  (those rats in
>the roof again ?), perhaps mine alone. I =19m perplexed at the  way/ fac=
>that analysis of passivity and lurking by anonymous subscribers is so
>clearly described as the (partial) cause of upheavals and changes in the
>prevous  list, while its successor has meanwhile  snowballed overnight
>from a few dozen to 250, again raising the same old  issue of anonymity =
>who =19s talking, who =19s listening, who cares ?  Paradoxical. To harp =
>again with an old obsession, it might be of interest to  a few of us get
>an overview of the current list, in terms of geographies and
>cartographies, including the nomads and homeless and proverbial voyagers.
>To see  how =AB deep Europe =BB we still really are. (Speaking as a kiwi=
>naturellement) But I =19m well aware of the fact that that kind of thing=
>a task  in itself. Especially when it means overviewing a mushrooming
>community and winter's setting in.

for me, Syndicate worked so long as i could imagine it as a community, a
circle of friends who share certain ideas, know each other, and look
forward to seeing each other; a community like this, in my eyes, only wor=
if people share ideas about the ethics of communication (no insults, no
threats) and about the purpose of the media that they use (no spamming);
these shared ideas need to be protected through the kind of social contro=
that does not require authoritative invigilation, but that people like to
submit to because it is part of their friendly being together. when there
are many people on the list who disturb that consensus, and even more who
are so passive that they would not even defend basic principles of
sociability, i believe that that passivity becomes part of the problem.

as regards the subscriber base, the problem is that i don't want to
publicise the list because it might be abused, and i don't know how to
corrupt the addresses sufficiently so they cannot be used for spamming et=
but sally, i offered you before to give you a peek at the list - i repeat
that offer.

>Looking forward to discovering Skopje in a fortnight and  having a go at
>=AB Understanding the Balkans =BB. Odd coincidences mean  that my funny =
>cognac comic-strip town of Angoul=EAme has cultural ties with Skopje tha=
>may make it possible to  build some more lasting links. Between people
>basically. Via art. Because I tend  not to dissociate art, in keeping wi=
>my probably solipsist/ autistic  definition of it, from people and their
>needs. In fact, to really put my foot in  it (that =19s ok, I got two),
>would define art as something people need.

you know that i do not disagree; but there is art that is deliberately
disruptive or asocial, and when i get a performance artist who pisses on =
carpet i reserve the right not to invite him again.

again, i know that this is tricky and i am not sure about it. take nn who
takes pride in 'succeeding' with regard to the syndicate. it is art, i
guess. but is it something people need? when? how? where?


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