[spectre] Dispatches from Ukraine: Tactical Media Reflflections and Responses

Sun Jul 17 12:28:54 CEST 2022

Without the Americans there will be no peace in Ukraine.
It may be that the Russian administration lies, you can hardly trust 
them etc., but the American administration is not lying, it refuses to 
speak to the Russians since Obama. Obama also managed to humiliate the 
Russians as a "provincial state". Biden is not better here either. The 
last American president who spoke to Putin was the "much hated" Trump.
The Russians can not agree to NATO membership of Ukraine, just as the 
Americans cannot agree with Russian weapons in Cuba or the connection of 
the Solomon Islands to China.

So there is at least 3 parties beyond a moral classification in this 
conflict: the American, the Ukrainian and the Russian. The European side 
is too negligible here, because this is forced to fully integrate the 
American wishes. In the discussion, it is dishonest to ask now: "On 
which side are you?", Or to interture the subintellectual calculation: 
"Do you really want the Russians to kill even more children?" This is 
not a level. The only question that needs to be solved is: "How and 
under what conditions do we end the war. Or: How and under what 
objectives or consequences should the war continue?" There are really 
two sides here now. I personally am for a quick war ending; The 
conditions that Ukraine would have to bear here in my opinion would be 
the constant loss of the Krim, a transition status of the Dombas, 
permanent neutrality of Ukraine.
Anyone who chooses the other option accepts that Ukraine is fighting 
until it is bled. Then there is also peace. This war could take 1-2 years.

Christoph
wechselstrom

Rasa Smite schrieb:
>
> heath
>
> I am sorry, but your messages don't make any sense, they are full of 
> "jumbled thoughts", or may be my English is not sophisticated enough 
> but I don't get your point,
>
> may I make it bit more clear here - that since the Feb 24, 2022 (war 
> in Ukraine started) there are basically only two sides - either you 
> support Ukraine's fight to get free from Russia's occupants, or you 
> accept that Putin's Russia can go on and take the dominance, 
> continuing to use their worst and most cynical war methods against 
> civilians in Ukraine - now, and later in other countries.. (they will 
> never stop, as they never have enough - not only many experts say so, 
> but also my personal experience - of living my first 20 years in my 
> life in Russia's occupied Latvia).
>
> there is no other third way, as this is not a democratic country we 
> deal with, it's based on lies, it always was, and these lies are very 
> different ones than those in your 'bad' capitalist countries, because 
> they are really dangerous, 'imperialistic' (as you say) and 
> chauvinistic, they make other nations they occupy lesser than them, 
> and make other world to believe their 'cultures' are bigger and 
> better, while our (other Eastern European, and former occupied 
> countries) voices then have always been shut up, you were used to call 
> us "rusophobs", which is totally not the case and never was, many of 
> my best friends are Russians.
>
> > can we not leave nation states to fight it out between themselves ?
>
> of course not! the 'nice' Western people already for too long have 
> accepted Russia's Kremlin propaganda and their hybrid media wars as in 
> Baltics, never taking too seriously, and again calling us Rusophobes, 
> Western countries were always shutting us up when our governments gave 
> the serious warnings in various (especially recent ones) European 
> meetings.
>
> so either you listen bit more carefully what the other nations who 
> have been under long occupation think of the war in Ukraine and Russia 
> as country,
>
> or you can try yourself to visit Russia and try to figure out what the 
> 140 million people there really think..
>
> or, move to Latvia, if you really want to understand and personally 
> experience how does it feel to live just 200 km from the border of the 
> big threatening country, who already occupied us once. it is here very 
> different feeling to be here - as Latvia (which is rather poor 
> country) is hosting 40 000 refugees from Ukraine, where my friends are 
> delivering jeep cars privately to the Ukraine to help them (while 
> other pacifistic Western European countries deny or delay their 
> military support), and we do this because at least 30% by official 
> statistics believe that we will be next... (sooner or later).
>
> so any, even the most tiniest expression or sign of a help or support 
> such as an art residency or writing activist project, supporting 
> Ukrainian position is worth it, because it is a simply a humanistic 
> act, so much needed, as their hearts and lives are broken no matter if 
> they have escaped, but they are aware of that in their country Russian 
> militarists continue to kill and rape...
>
> so while pacifism has long way to be achieved, there are humans and 
> their lives that need any support or a sign of any solidarity now...
>
> any critical skepticism towards those who do something is the least 
> needed.
>
> Jaanis sent you great sources, you better read them first before 
> questioning, if they are trustful enough for you.
>
> and last but not least, I also can share my own 'jumbled thoughts' by 
> referring to Manovich's post in FB, when he said that please consider 
> that many people (especially young ones) in Russia would prefer to 
> live in your "rotten" capitalist system. So am I, as I have 
> experienced both - communist and capitalist governments. And here I am 
> largely suspicious about your pacifistic ideas, as well as other UK's 
> May 1st Day activist ambivalent intents (how I call them - marxists 
> with Porsche): may be you simply don't want countries like Ukraine, 
> Moldova, Georgia, etc. to share with your capitalist "goods" and 
> people achieving just to live their normal lives?
>
> best
>
> Rasa
>
>
>
> On 16/07/2022 14:49, heath bunting wrote:
>> jaanis
>>
>> thanks for links - will take a look - not hopeful for making
>> good decision on these though, as it takes years of careful scrutiny
>> to determine whether sources are reliable and not mouthpieces for 
>> in-tell agencies
>>
>> why does russian state propaganda matter to grass roots activists ?
>>
>> i would have thought super-state propaganda vs sub-state propaganda 
>> is more relevant
>>
>> can we not leave nation states to fight it out between themselves ?
>>
>> overwhelming evidence suggestions that unlawful trans-national 
>> entities such as empires (united state of america empire: USAE) are a 
>> greater threat to individuals/ humanity than lawfully constituted 
>> nation states
>>
>> what's more of a threat to peace ? 1000 foreign USAE military bases or
>> 2 russian foreign military bases ?
>>
>> hope all is well
>>
>> heath
>>
>>
>> On Sat, 16 Jul 2022, jg at 21.x-i.net wrote:
>>
>>> Most of your questions about importance of fighting russian state 
>>> propaganda can be answered by these expert resources:
>>>
>>>
>>> https://meduza.io/en/feature/2022/03/08/meduza-is-granting-open-access-to-all-content-about-the-war-in-ukraine-under-a-creative-commons-license 
>>>
>>>
>>> https://meduza.io/en/feature/2022/07/12/meduza-is-hiring-a-social-media-editor-for-its-english-language-edition 
>>>
>>>
>>> https://theconversation.com/russias-disappearing-independent-media-why-they-closed-178590 
>>>
>>>
>>> https://netzpolitik.org/2020/russian-disinformation-the-network-of-fake-foreign-media/ 
>>>
>>>
>>> https://euvsdisinfo.eu/report/the-war-in-ukraine-is-about-the-reunification-of-the-russian-people2 
>>>
>>>
>>> The Russian neo-Nazis fighting Vladimir Putin’s war to ‘denazify’ 
>>> Ukraine
>>> https://meduza.io/en/feature/2022/07/15/dying-to-kill
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> List of few independent  resources in Russian..
>>>
>>> https://www.youtube.com/c/Popularpolitics
>>> https://www.youtube.com/c/NevzorovTV
>>> https://www.youtube.com/c/FeyginLive
>>> https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCzaqqlriSjVyc795m86GVyg
>>> https://www.youtube.com/c/Gordonua
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On 16/07/2022 11:03, heath bunting wrote:
>>>> geert
>>>>
>>>>> supporting Ukrainian media and confronting Russian state propaganda.
>>>>
>>>> these aims appear to be very aligned to imperial interests
>>>>
>>>> what do you mean by ukrainian media ? state/ corporate or grass 
>>>> roots ?
>>>>
>>>> why is it important to confront russian state propaganda ?
>>>>
>>>> who is at risk of this messaging ?
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