[spectre] Dispatches from Ukraine: Tactical Media Reflflections and Responses

Sun Jul 17 15:04:33 CEST 2022

Is Ukraine the Ukrainian population?If Ukraine (or the Ukrainian 
population) wants to continue fighting, I am the last to comment on it. 
They will pay a blood roll of around 100-200 deaths a day. And that over 
the next 1-2 years. With or without weapons from the West. I don't think 
the war can be won for Ukraine, in the sense that the Russians are 
thrown out of the Krim and from the Donbass.You, Ryszard have to 
understand that Ukraine not only suffers from Putin's criminal regim, 
but is dependent on the same extent of America and its willingness to 
deliver weapons or willingness to talk.with Putin.

Christoph

Ryszard Kluszczyński schrieb:
> Christoph,
>
> you should rather not speak on behalf of Ukraine, it’s quite ridiculous.
> You even misspell the name of the Ukrainian region you talk about.
> We, citizens of the countries in this part of Europe, too often heard voices like yours saying what we should do for our own sake.
> In the situation when Finland is part of NATO treaty, the eventual membership of Ukraine is not significant anymore.
> The war is not about this. And has never been.
> And this is not we to end the war. Ukraine wants to do it but the conditions must be defined by them, not “us”.
> Our countries and we - and you too - just have to help Ukrainiens to get to the situation when they could negotiate the peace with Russia.
> They need just weapons to get to this point not good advices.
> Ukraine is an independent country. Do you remember? And Ukrainiens have the right to decide what is good for them.
>
> Take care
>
> Ryszard
>
> ……………………………………………...
> Prof. Ryszard W. Kluszczynski, PhD.
> Chair of Department of New Media and Digital Culture
> University of Lodz
> 171/173 Pomorska Street
> 90-236 Lodz
> Poland
> tel  +426655133
>
>
>
>> On 17 Jul 2022, at 12:28, christoph theiler <christoph at wechsel-strom.net> wrote:
>>
>> Without the Americans there will be no peace in Ukraine.
>> It may be that the Russian administration lies, you can hardly trust them etc., but the American administration is not lying, it refuses to speak to the Russians since Obama. Obama also managed to humiliate the Russians as a "provincial state". Biden is not better here either. The last American president who spoke to Putin was the "much hated" Trump.
>> The Russians can not agree to NATO membership of Ukraine, just as the Americans cannot agree with Russian weapons in Cuba or the connection of the Solomon Islands to China.
>>
>>
>> So there is at least 3 parties beyond a moral classification in this conflict: the American, the Ukrainian and the Russian. The European side is too negligible here, because this is forced to fully integrate the American wishes. In the discussion, it is dishonest to ask now: "On which side are you?", Or to interture the subintellectual calculation: "Do you really want the Russians to kill even more children?" This is not a level. The only question that needs to be solved is: "How and under what conditions do we end the war. Or: How and under what objectives or consequences should the war continue?" There are really two sides here now. I personally am for a quick war ending; The conditions that Ukraine would have to bear here in my opinion would be the constant loss of the Krim, a transition status of the Dombas, permanent neutrality of Ukraine.
>> Anyone who chooses the other option accepts that Ukraine is fighting until it is bled. Then there is also peace. This war could take 1-2 years.
>>
>> Christoph
>> wechselstrom
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Rasa Smite schrieb:
>>> heath
>>>
>>> I am sorry, but your messages don't make any sense, they are full of "jumbled thoughts", or may be my English is not sophisticated enough but I don't get your point,
>>>
>>> may I make it bit more clear here - that since the Feb 24, 2022 (war in Ukraine started) there are basically only two sides - either you support Ukraine's fight to get free from Russia's occupants, or you accept that Putin's Russia can go on and take the dominance, continuing to use their worst and most cynical war methods against civilians in Ukraine - now, and later in other countries.. (they will never stop, as they never have enough - not only many experts say so, but also my personal experience - of living my first 20 years in my life in Russia's occupied Latvia).
>>>
>>> there is no other third way, as this is not a democratic country we deal with, it's based on lies, it always was, and these lies are very different ones than those in your 'bad' capitalist countries, because they are really dangerous, 'imperialistic' (as you say) and chauvinistic, they make other nations they occupy lesser than them, and make other world to believe their 'cultures' are bigger and better, while our (other Eastern European, and former occupied countries) voices then have always been shut up, you were used to call us "rusophobs", which is totally not the case and never was, many of my best friends are Russians.
>>>
>>>> can we not leave nation states to fight it out between themselves ?
>>> of course not! the 'nice' Western people already for too long have accepted Russia's Kremlin propaganda and their hybrid media wars as in Baltics, never taking too seriously, and again calling us Rusophobes, Western countries were always shutting us up when our governments gave the serious warnings in various (especially recent ones) European meetings.
>>>
>>> so either you listen bit more carefully what the other nations who have been under long occupation think of the war in Ukraine and Russia as country,
>>>
>>> or you can try yourself to visit Russia and try to figure out what the 140 million people there really think..
>>>
>>> or, move to Latvia, if you really want to understand and personally experience how does it feel to live just 200 km from the border of the big threatening country, who already occupied us once. it is here very different feeling to be here - as Latvia (which is rather poor country) is hosting 40 000 refugees from Ukraine, where my friends are delivering jeep cars privately to the Ukraine to help them (while other pacifistic Western European countries deny or delay their military support), and we do this because at least 30% by official statistics believe that we will be next... (sooner or later).
>>>
>>> so any, even the most tiniest expression or sign of a help or support such as an art residency or writing activist project, supporting Ukrainian position is worth it, because it is a simply a humanistic act, so much needed, as their hearts and lives are broken no matter if they have escaped, but they are aware of that in their country Russian militarists continue to kill and rape...
>>>
>>> so while pacifism has long way to be achieved, there are humans and their lives that need any support or a sign of any solidarity now...
>>>
>>> any critical skepticism towards those who do something is the least needed.
>>>
>>> Jaanis sent you great sources, you better read them first before questioning, if they are trustful enough for you.
>>>
>>> and last but not least, I also can share my own 'jumbled thoughts' by referring to Manovich's post in FB, when he said that please consider that many people (especially young ones) in Russia would prefer to live in your "rotten" capitalist system. So am I, as I have experienced both - communist and capitalist governments. And here I am largely suspicious about your pacifistic ideas, as well as other UK's May 1st Day activist ambivalent intents (how I call them - marxists with Porsche): may be you simply don't want countries like Ukraine, Moldova, Georgia, etc. to share with your capitalist "goods" and people achieving just to live their normal lives?
>>>
>>> best
>>>
>>> Rasa
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On 16/07/2022 14:49, heath bunting wrote:
>>>> jaanis
>>>>
>>>> thanks for links - will take a look - not hopeful for making
>>>> good decision on these though, as it takes years of careful scrutiny
>>>> to determine whether sources are reliable and not mouthpieces for in-tell agencies
>>>>
>>>> why does russian state propaganda matter to grass roots activists ?
>>>>
>>>> i would have thought super-state propaganda vs sub-state propaganda is more relevant
>>>>
>>>> can we not leave nation states to fight it out between themselves ?
>>>>
>>>> overwhelming evidence suggestions that unlawful trans-national entities such as empires (united state of america empire: USAE) are a greater threat to individuals/ humanity than lawfully constituted nation states
>>>>
>>>> what's more of a threat to peace ? 1000 foreign USAE military bases or
>>>> 2 russian foreign military bases ?
>>>>
>>>> hope all is well
>>>>
>>>> heath
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On Sat, 16 Jul 2022, jg at 21.x-i.net wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Most of your questions about importance of fighting russian state propaganda can be answered by these expert resources:
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> https://meduza.io/en/feature/2022/03/08/meduza-is-granting-open-access-to-all-content-about-the-war-in-ukraine-under-a-creative-commons-license
>>>>>
>>>>> https://meduza.io/en/feature/2022/07/12/meduza-is-hiring-a-social-media-editor-for-its-english-language-edition
>>>>>
>>>>> https://theconversation.com/russias-disappearing-independent-media-why-they-closed-178590
>>>>>
>>>>> https://netzpolitik.org/2020/russian-disinformation-the-network-of-fake-foreign-media/
>>>>>
>>>>> https://euvsdisinfo.eu/report/the-war-in-ukraine-is-about-the-reunification-of-the-russian-people2
>>>>>
>>>>> The Russian neo-Nazis fighting Vladimir Putin’s war to ‘denazify’ Ukraine
>>>>> https://meduza.io/en/feature/2022/07/15/dying-to-kill
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> List of few independent  resources in Russian..
>>>>>
>>>>> https://www.youtube.com/c/Popularpolitics
>>>>> https://www.youtube.com/c/NevzorovTV
>>>>> https://www.youtube.com/c/FeyginLive
>>>>> https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCzaqqlriSjVyc795m86GVyg
>>>>> https://www.youtube.com/c/Gordonua
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> On 16/07/2022 11:03, heath bunting wrote:
>>>>>> geert
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> supporting Ukrainian media and confronting Russian state propaganda.
>>>>>> these aims appear to be very aligned to imperial interests
>>>>>>
>>>>>> what do you mean by ukrainian media ? state/ corporate or grass roots ?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> why is it important to confront russian state propaganda ?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> who is at risk of this messaging ?
>>>>> ______________________________________________
>>>>> SPECTRE list for media culture in Deep Europe
>>>>> Info, archive and help:
>>>>> https://post.in-mind.de/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/spectre
>>>>>
>>>> ______________________________________________
>>>> SPECTRE list for media culture in Deep Europe
>>>> Info, archive and help:
>>>> https://post.in-mind.de/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/spectre
>>> ______________________________________________
>>> SPECTRE list for media culture in Deep Europe
>>> Info, archive and help:
>>> https://post.in-mind.de/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/spectre
>> ______________________________________________
>> SPECTRE list for media culture in Deep Europe
>> Info, archive and help:
>> https://post.in-mind.de/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/spectre